#5: Healthy challenge is the way to transformation With Tutti Taygerly
Description:
How do we leverage our inner sense of healthy competition to fuel our next level of growth? Staying fresh in our approach to becoming an even greater leader is essential for a sense of fulfillment. Our guest, Tutti Taygerly, lends her strategies and perspectives, which she uses in coaching cofounders and tech leaders to embrace their unique leadership style to achieve professional impact and a sustainable company culture. Tutti shares her insights as a design leader for Disney and Meta.
Bio:
Tutti coaches cofounders and tech leaders to embrace their unique leadership styles to achieve professional impact and a sustainable company culture. Previously, she was a design leader at design firms, startups, and large companies, including Disney and Meta.
Links:
Website: https://www.tuttitaygerly.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tuttitaygerly/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tutti/
Transcription:
(00:02):
Hello and welcome to Ignite Your Leadership. I'm so grateful to be your host, Tina Marie Saint here. And each week we help you challenge yourself to be a better person, a better leader, and connect with your team in magnificent ways. And we're doing that again today. So today we have a dear friend of mine to Taygerly, and we are talking about having healthy challenges in our leadership, and I'm sure we're going to have just a wonderful journey and pathway through that. So let me tell you a little bit about 2D, 2D coaches, co-founders and tech leaders to embrace their unique leadership style to achieve professional impact and sustainable company culture. Previously, she was a design leader at design firms, startups, and large companies. You may have heard a few of these including Disney and what we know now as Meta. So thank you so much, Tooty, for being our guest here on Ignite Your Leadership.
(00:56):
Thanks, Tina. Marie, I'm excited to be here.
(00:59):
Me too. It's, it's always great to have conversations with you. The magic is in the moment, right?
(01:06):
Absolutely.
(01:07):
And so, I know you work with leaders they find you <laugh>, which is beautiful. You put yourself out there visibly with your books and then also with your TED Talks, which people can go replay online. And today I wanted to find out what types of things are you seeing? Are there trends now in people in their leadership where they want to grow? We've become, I believe, more entrepreneurial in how we run our cultures. And does that create some, you know, obstacles for leaders in leading people and leading themselves in their company culture when we know we're, we're wanting to wrangle the cats, I guess and, and make sure everybody feels as though they have a place and a, and a voice and that we're valuing them?
(01:51):
Absolutely. I think a lot of the conversations that I've seen over the past years, especially as people have dealt with being at home, working remotely, the pandemic, causing them to revisit certain what's what matters and what's important in their life. And then secondly, I'd say most of the people I work with are in tech. So there is an impact in the tech industry right now with downturns and layoffs and years of efficiency where tech companies are coming down to say, well, you know, these years of having free food benefits, all of this stuff, well, it's, we really just need to focus on getting the, the work done. But the impact on that for workers, employees are like, wait, I'm, I'm used to having a certain style of, of working and being treated, and my identity was wrapped up in my company, and now what's next? So kind of those two factors, the pandemic, the tech downturn, and then the third, the rise of generative ai. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
(02:53):
Oh
(02:53):
Yeah. The overwhelming fear all around, which is what is gonna happen to my job? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, am I safe? What,
(03:02):
And what's the value I bring into the workforce?
(03:05):
Exactly. So there's all three of those that I see as overall themes and trends that tend to bring a ton of just fear, anxiety, victim mentality, what am I going to do with all of these? And the push on the other side is well, self care, anti hussle. This is, this is stuff that I think really, really matters. I mean, my first book was MakeSpace to Lead that shared my journey out of the corporate world, and the hours, the 80 hours a week I used to work, and that wasn't sustainable anymore. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But I think the narrative now with all of these three themes is beyond pure self care and anti hussle. And what I've been seeing themes and trends of is something that I, I've been calling healthy challenge. Yeah. Which is finding the right balance for yourself. And this isn't work life balance.
(04:03):
Mm-Hmm. But it's finding what parts of work energize you, make you feel fulfilled. What is the north star for what you care about professionally? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Because yes, we love the trappings of a title A promotion, money, all that is great. And these are extrinsic things that are worth striving for. But you need both that and the sense of fulfillment that I'm doing the work that I do best. Right. I'm working with a team that I love. I'm doing something bigger in the world. And it could be on the level of I'm working at a startup that is looking at ethics of generative ai. And it could be on the level of, look, I'm part of a team at Trader Joe's. I'm working to make like each customer who comes through feel really good about and joke about their groceries. Like, it doesn't matter what level it is. Mm-Hmm. I believe that people need challenge and mission and purpose. Right. With their company and their professional work to feel fulfilled.
(05:07):
So I have a question there, and I'm sorry, I have a question there. Is, it's whose responsibility is it to see that we feel challenged? Is it our own to say, I'm going to hold the perspective that I'm gonna find the value and the challenge in my work, be it stuck on a shelf or building an app or is it the leader's role to remind us and help us position that and frame the importance and the meaning of our role in a given, you know, team?
(05:39):
All of the above. Ideally, you are in a system, a corporate culture that understands the right balance of healthy challenge, having enough so that employees feel motivated and want to work and see that sense of purpose are engaged, but not too much. Like, and that level is different from each person. Some become, some can work these hours for a couple of years. I work with startup co-founders. They're willing to do this for their mission for a couple of years. And other people's aren't, 'cause that same set of conditions is gonna give them burnout. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So my answer to your question is both, if you can be the leader who can motivate your team to peak performance, right? By creating the culture of autonomy, of belonging, of making sure that people aren't afraid to fail, of making sure that they can dissent and also disagree and move forward together, that creates the environment for everyone to thrive. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And on the individual level, on one level, you might not have leaders like that. Yeah. You might be listening and be like, oh, that sounds great, but that's not my boss. Mm-Hmm.
(06:52):
<Affirmative>.
(06:53):
Then when it's on that level, you've gotta work on finding that yourself. Ideally, both are are in place, but it's reality. You work with what you can.
(07:03):
Definitely. And what if we have this belief inside of ourselves that we can contribute at a higher level. We wanna have that courageous conversation with our leadership and say, put me in coach let me try this out. Let me pilot this. Let me show you what I can do. Can you speak to that with our, our, our listeners and our, our wonderful family here at Ignite to say, you know, it's, it's, you know, carry that baton for yourself, and how would you invite them to do so, so that they can get out of their own ruts and and shine.
(07:37):
I love that attitude and that inspiration, really, that ignition of carry your own baton. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So I think there's a number of conditions that need to be in place, and it's not a, it's not black or white. You can kind of suss out with your spidey senses if this is there. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. This is not something I would particularly recommend in the first 30, 60, 90 days of a new job. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, in that period, you're still seeing what's the culture? What's my boss? What are these norms and standards of this particular system I'm in? So I believe in that mode. You're, you're kind of in observation mode. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. If you wanna say, put me in coach, my first question is, does your boss trust you? And do you trust your boss?
(08:26):
So think about that. Listeners. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. If the answer is, is an unequivocal yes. Mm-Hmm. Then I'm like, great. Go ahead and do the, put me in coach. Say, Hey, based on what you know about me, based on what I've accomplished, these are some learning. I'm starting to get maybe a little demotivated, or I'm starting to get a little burned out. Here's some ways that I would love to co-create and collaborate with you so that I can do more to help the company. To help the team. That's the perfect time to raise your hand and say, yeah, put me in coach. I've got ideas. The one thing I would caution on is when you make this request, definitely make it with a we attitude, not a me attitude. This is what's good for the entire team, for the company. And also be prepared when you make it, you have no control over what your boss's answer is.
(09:17):
They could say yes, or they could say no. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, that doesn't matter. What matters is you keep making the request. And what's likely is their no may simply be a not now because of something entirely unrelated to you or them. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> have the patience. Keep making the put me in coach. It will happen at some point in time. So that's the conditions where I'd say, you'd say that we can go a number of different ways. Tina, Marie, we can go into the what if your boss doesn't, what if you didn't say une an unequivocal. Yes. Or we can go somewhere else. It would be fun. Yeah.
(09:50):
And that healthy challenge is what we're, you know, we're dancing right now is, you know, I can see many people getting into the, I'm just so glad to have a job right now. I don't want to, you know, upside the apple cartt, you know, upset the applet Mm-Hmm. In any way. I, you know, wanna keep my head down, do a good job, not be the tall poppy, you know, at the, and then at the same time, inside they, they feel that they want more. Yeah. And so how do we balance that drive of the certainty we want and the stability we want in our job? Because it does equal income, which we're supporting our families and that we want and not have at risk yet. How do I grow and, and balance that need for growth in myself, especially in my career? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, and, and some people go to get a new degree. Some people will literally, you know, just wanna be in a different department. Or maybe they get a hobby. But what have you seen on how you've coached your clients toward healthy challenge?
(10:49):
I love the way that you've framed it. Mm-Hmm. Because you started with a, well, you know, maybe you've got a lot going on in your life. Maybe there's other stuff. Maybe you're okay with just doing the nine to five. 'cause I wanna say that if people are in that area Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, maybe you've got elderly parents to take care of. Maybe you've got, you know, a another family emergency or other things occupying your, your attention. Maybe it's a new passion hobby. It's okay. It's okay for a season, a month, even longer to be like, all right, I'm gonna be in this area and I'm getting challenged in other areas of my life. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So the healthy balance of it is for my work, it's okay for me to put in what is needed for work at this time. However, what I love is that you brought in this feeling of a, oh, I want more. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, what I'm doing professionally just doesn't feel enough. I have this urge to grow. I have this urge to learn. I have this other feeling of something else. And I'd say first really stop and listen to it. Listen to what is it about the more that you want. And what is it driven by?
(12:04):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
(12:06):
Many times, and this is very, very realistic, we're driven by fear. I talk, I started talking about gen ai, a fear that like, the robots are gonna take over our job, or, Hey, I'm gonna get laid off here. All of this stuff. So one thing I would say it's best to have this like really trusting strong relationship with your boss is first gather the facts and information.
(12:29):
Mm-Hmm.
(12:30):
<Affirmative>, what does the boss think of me right now? How am I doing with my work? Is my work providing the impact that it should be? And that's a conversation. It can be pure feedback, it can be a conversation, and you figure it out on both levels. Do I know that I'm doing good work? And there is some intrinsic satisfaction with that. And then the second is, am I getting that feedback? So get on the same page with your boss and your peers. So let's assume you're doing great work. It's good and you want to do more. This is when you start to have the conversations with your boss. Either put me in coach or building the trust and rapport with your boss so that you can say that. And this is where you can really then start to explore, are there op other opportunities in this department for me to learn?
(13:16):
Could I raise my hand and say, Hey, I wanna be the person who goes and investigates gpt and figure out how I can learn about generative AI and share the learnings back with the entire department. Right. Can I go out and, you know, get a evening time MBA, because this is what's getting moved me forward to our go, our goals. It really starts with a conversation and having that ability to have a conversation about dreams with your boss. Yes. And also to you, yourself kind of have an inkling to be like, well, I wanna learn more, or I wanna learn a new skill, or, well, this isn't quite the type of work I wanna do. I wanna do this other type of work. So it's knowing yourself and what's gonna Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> what challenges are gonna make you thrive. And then having that conversation.
(14:04):
That's beautiful. So, so many questions are coming to mind. I know from your perspective here I, I've seen some people do that. Some clients do that. And I, I posed a question to them with their, their desire for additional education moving in a certain direction. I asked, have you sat with your leadership to find some congruency with where you want to go in that expansion and the strategic plan that your company has? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. How would you speak to someone even if they're not privy to the strategic plan in detail and they're only seeing their sliver is it possible to sit with your leadership or be invited to a table to understand more of the strategic plan so that where you're headed does have that integration with your company?
(14:54):
Absolutely. I would always ask for it. Ask to get the information, ask to get the context, ask to get the clarity. And in addition to the ask, come in with an offer.
(15:05):
Mm-Hmm.
(15:05):
<Affirmative>, you might not know the whole strategic plan, but you should have a good sense of what the business model of the company is, where the company's going. Just the basic, how does the company make money? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And then you can come in with a hypothesis with saying, Hey, these are the areas I'm interested in. This is where I think it could help the company. But it would be really helpful if you could give me additional context of where the company's going so we could figure out that match.
(15:30):
Definitely.
(15:31):
And I'll tell you a story that's actually really, really interesting. One of the clients that I was coaching is the CEO of an of series B funded startup. And he used one, there was started to be some, one of a talented person on the team who was amazing, was promoted to manager, really had huge a huge purview overseeing an entire team. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But what happened and what they learned throughout conversations between both of them is that this individual wasn't that happy, didn't feel that the role was the best match, didn't feel that they were learning. And they together had this conversation before performance suffered, before bad things happened, because this conversation couldn't be happening. And what ended up, the two of them together decided that they were gonna change this person's role and have them be much more of an individual contributor because there were still a lot of strengths that this person could offer and some unique technical skills that only this person could do to help the company's business model.
(16:45):
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So this is a happy scenario because the two people had a lot of trust, a lot of understanding my client, the CEO really knew that this person was great. It simply wasn't quite the right role. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So for listeners this might sound like idealistic, but it is, how do you cultivate this atmosphere of trust true with your boss so that you can have these conversations? And how do you show based on the work that you've done already, that you're already doing Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> that you can contribute and you can contribute towards the strategic direction of the company.
(17:23):
That's beautiful. I, I love this idea. 'cause I've seen this too, where literally I've had executives that have come up the chain of command. They've been trusted, they've created the numbers, they've hit their quotas, and they've been gifted leadership. They've been gifted a great purview into, you know, divisions of the company with p and l responsibilities. And of course with that, it's enticing and you say yes, and you jump in and you believe that you're going to perform well. The one person I have in in mind, he was struggling. He couldn't figure out, and, and, you know, I coached him and he was even thinking, you know, what's wrong with me that I, that I, I cannot lead these people. And, and it was a day-to-day pain he was taking his worries home to his family. And what we came down to with some assessments and some true telling is that he thrived as being an individual contributor. Yep. Yeah. Whenever he was given this additional responsibility of leading team and growing team and growing this business unit that's where he felt like he was handcuffed Yep. And couldn't shine. And so we went to the board and, and actually it's not a demotion, it was a right fit, but exactly. His mind was like, I, I'm going backwards here. How can I go backwards here? What's wrong with me? Can we speak to that for our leaders Yes. That are saying maybe I don't wanna lead people, I wanna lead initiatives.
(18:49):
One of the things I want to speak to is the fact that we are all in such a cultural system of beliefs. And we see it in the world of diversity, equity, and inclusion. That many of us, we all, actually not many of us, we all have unconscious biases Yes. And implicit biases. It's how we were raised, what we grew up with as habits and customs in our family. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And one of the beliefs that I want to point out, because I believe that when we point them out, that's when we're able to name it and talk about it. But one of the beliefs that is in our corporate world is that you climb the ladder and it is better to climb up the ladder to be closer and closer and closer to the CEO, right? Yes. It's how many positions off are you from the CEO O Oh, I'm one off. I report to the CEO, I'm two off, I'm three off, whatever that is. And this is the notion of climbing the corporate ladder. And the belief system says it's better to manage people than it is to not manage people. Mm-Hmm.
(20:05):
<Affirmative>,
(20:05):
It's better to manage more people because it means I am successful. Sure. Right? Like, Mm-Hmm.
(20:12):
<Affirmative>. Yeah. I'm nodding the head.
(20:14):
It's our corporate belief system. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, the top head honcho is the CEO who manages all the people in the company. I wanted to point that out very explicitly because this is a belief system we are all bought into. Mm-Hmm. And it's very, very, very hard to shake the trappings of this belief system for ourself and for other people. You know, you look at someone, you're like, oh, they manage people. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> they did well in
(20:43):
Unless these, they're successful. Right. That's,
(20:44):
They're successful. Exactly. And look, the reason why some of this exists is 'cause there's some truth in it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, in order to be need leader, CEO, you need managers. You need people who manage other people. Right. Because we often conflate leaders and managers. But you of course, you can be a leader if you're an individual contributor. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> the reason why this is so hard for someone to move from a manager to an individual contributor position Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, is that there's this dissonance with this system's belief versus the individual's True. Knowing that, well, I, I tried that. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> that didn't fit me. Right. The work that I do best is that this individual contributor level, and how do I do this? How do I thrive in this? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And the reason why this is hard is that's not the standard way of how corporations are built. Corporations are built in a pyramid model with one person, one CEO, who has like, I don't know, six to eight direct reports and then it like pyramids down. But what I love with more creative, innovative companies is that there can be structures for people to take on more responsibility and learning that doesn't have to be the manager track.
(22:05):
Right.
(22:06):
And it helps to share stories like these two that we've, we've shared to be like, there's other ways for this to work.
(22:12):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, this particular individual, once we were able to align his authentic nature, and that's what we're talking about, authentic nature, your leadership style. He is a leader. He just didn't wanna be responsible for the day-to-day operations of the people. Are you coming to work? Are you wearing the right clothing? Are you checking in and doing all your reports on time? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, he didn't want to be the manager of the tasks of people. He wanted to be the communication of the initiatives and the work that needed to be done for the outcome of the company and the customers, but not the day-to-day operations. And so once we understood, and it was almost like we're trying to force him into the wrong peg. Yeah. And you know, the CEO going, well, what's wrong with me? Why don't you just learn? Can I send you to a class or something? Can you learn how to do this? And you know, this particular person said, yes, send me to the classes, I'll learn it. But it wasn't his nature. Right.
(23:05):
Okay. I'm really glad you brought this up, <laugh>, because I think there are a number of steps that need to be taken to diagnose the problem. Right. So sometimes when someone is really, really, really good at their individual contributor job Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, they get promoted to be the manager of the team. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But as you and I both know, managing skills, you know, how to get the best out of employees, how to maintain the culture of the team, how to balance out the team so that you play to people's strengths, these managerial skills, both self-leadership and leading your entire team are not taught. And the people who are promoted are often the ones who are really good at a deep technical skill. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I believe the first diagnosis of the problem is train the manager. Train give this person support and skills and classes so that they can learn these, these skills of managing a team in your person's case.
(24:07):
Sounds like they did that. They did that. And the CEO gave them classes once they learned how to do the job, they could do it, but it didn't match their true nature. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> what I feel that is hard to tell sometimes. 'cause When you're in a new situation doing a completely new job, like managing, you don't actually know, are you excited about this? 'cause It's new. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, that's great. Maybe you manage for a couple of years, learn how to do it, get educated, get the training, get the skills. I mean, you and I, I believe both work with a ton of new managers to give them this training, but then the next step is like, well, I've been doing this for a couple years, do I actually like it? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, there's, I am I good at it. But a lot of high achievers can be good at many, many things. But the true question is, is it what I want to be doing right now? Right. And so that's why I wanted to split it up into the training and then the true nature part of it. That's
(24:58):
True. And it's the question, you know, is it what I wanna be doing? Sometimes we get to the place where we judge that, is it what I wanna be doing? Because we've had this memory of the previous life where we weren't managing people and was I happier there or am I happier now? So it can be, like you say, healthy challenges. It could be the reason to rise and become better at our skill of managing people and lean into it because, you know, we just maybe need to be better at it. Right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Or it can be the same, you know, you know, in this particular executive's case where he wasn't that great at managing the people yet he was really good at selling and growing the company. Yep. So let's not confuse leadership or that with the need to manage the day-to-day operations of humans to reach the outcome that is most pivotal for the company. Yep. Where's the performance and the happiness versus, you know, just being productive and busy all day.
(25:56):
No, absolutely. And I can imagine a case with that executive. It sounds like there was a happy ending. Yes. They were able to like, move him to a different position. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, something that I've also found is if you are self-aware, you could also, as part of challenge, do a role that's not completely suited to your nature for a short period of time for the benefit of the company. Hmm. And tell us more
(26:23):
About that.
(26:25):
So let's say that this executive was very, very good operationally. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> it wasn't. And I have worked with a different executive who had those skills, was very, very good. Operationally could train himself to be good enough to it. Their nature was much more a visionary, a dreamer. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But what was needed for the company for that period of a year or two was to focus on the operationals stuff,
(26:56):
The execution
(26:57):
To ex execute, to expand, to do that. Not dream up new big ideas. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, they were able to do that. It was a challenge for them 'cause it was not their true nature, but they were able to do that for a year.
(27:12):
Mm-Hmm.
(27:13):
<Affirmative>, sometimes you can do things that you learn, make yourself good at and do it. I think it's hard to do that for a long period of time over decades that might lead to burnout, that might lead to really starting to hate your job. Yeah. But if you have a limited time period for it, if you know it's gonna end. I mean, kind of people in long distance relationships. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it's a short period of time where there's a challenge and there's, you know, a healthy challenge. 'cause You got, you still love the person. You love your job, love the company. You gotta figure out how it make, how it's gonna work for a short period of time. Right.
(27:51):
That's
(27:51):
Also an example of healthy challenge. And then if you're working in the right company with the right boss, it's gonna be like, all right, after this period of time, I put in my dues, I put in my hours, I've done what's best for the company. Now let's explore something else that truly fulfills what I wanna learn or do next. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> or it's time to leave.
(28:10):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that is the, I think that's the marker. That's the boundary. I see so many people agreeing to the first half of it the challenge, but not having a, by this time we have either determined it's an absolute fit or it's not. And then this is the next stage of that. It's much like project planning. We'll understand the milestone and then what do we do next? Yep. Right. Usually people enter into a challenge because it's got so much energy and the possibility there and the trust and, you know, I'm, I'm gonna go make this happen. We don't have the check-ins to say, by this time, we're gonna measure whether or not it's effective. And then we have a plan B afterwards for that challenge to see where things go. That's, that's pivotal.
(28:50):
Absolutely. Absolutely. It's that period of time. It's that endpoint, it's that communication. It's that. And that's often really, really hard for people to do. Mm-Hmm. And the only and time will go by that check-in won't happen. The period of time will end and they're still doing it. That's when they feel stuck, stuck,
(29:09):
Stuck, stuck, stuck. Mm-Hmm.
(29:11):
<Affirmative> stuck, stuck, stuck, burned out. That's when they quit and find another job. 'cause Right. It's too long. Or that's when they keep doing it and get miserable. And I've seen people have huge health challenges because Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> they feel like this sense of duty and responsibility to keep going, but that's really unhealthy.
(29:30):
And they tell themselves a story. Nobody else can do what I'm doing. They can't hire, we don't have the budget. I mean, just
(29:35):
Absolutely happens.
(29:36):
I got to work with this one executive, and she taught me this is probably about 10 years ago. And I knew this existed, but I wasn't so intimate with it. She said, I have a five-year contract. So she got brought in as a CEO, had a five-year contract, had her initiatives, the strategic plan. These are the milestones is what we're going to achieve. Of course, you're measuring it all the way down, and then the five years is gonna come. So we've got four years, and then we know that this last year we've gotta really decide what am I moving across the finish line. And then the five year mark came and, you know, she, the company wanted to keep her on the company's like, we love you. Everybody loves you. You've been doing so much. You know, we've gone from, you know, this size of a company and this, you know, status within our industry to, you know, just huge, you know, accolades all these awards.
(30:25):
And they assumed she was gonna say, yeah, let's just keep this show going. Weren't the five year mark. And she goes, s love you guys. You know, and they, they'd already trained her replacement and had somebody as an interim stepping in Uhhuh, but they were surprised. They're like, everything's going great. Why would you leave? And her answer, you know, I, because I got to know her intimately, was I need my next challenge. Not just this, this company isn't, you know, I, I love the company, I love what I've been able to do, but I'm an individual that's also growing and this is my life. And it seemed as though the people on the board were like, almost, you know, it had their own wake up call. Like, oh wow. We need our next challenge too. But I love this topic of healthy challenge because it's our growth game. Right.
(31:14):
One of the one of my bosses at, at Meta gave me some, some advice that I've never been able to forget. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, which is when you have a job, a new job. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, your goal should be to work yourself out of that job. Absolutely. Create the systems, hire the people. Like, once you've learned a job, figure out how you can pass that on, that knowledge, that learning, that training onto someone else, and then have them come up and do it. You mentioned succession plan. Mm-Hmm. And when that's happening, you can look around at the Greenfield and be like, okay, what's next? What's gonna invigorate me? And look, I work with a ton of high achievers. So, and a lot of the fast-paced Silicon Valley culture for someone in that type of culture, and with that type of DNA, you might wanna do that every six months for someone else with a different type of need, a different type of culture, a different type of corporation they're working with. It might be every six years. So I'm not gonna judge one or the other. Mm-Hmm. But I think what starts to be really interesting about knowing when the right time is for you, and I don't know if you wanna shift into this, but mm-Hmm. Is really watching your, your energy. Mm-Hmm. So where do you wanna shift?
(32:27):
Yeah, I wanna go into that. Tell us more about that. What do we watch to know our energy?
(32:32):
So sometimes it's hard to know what we really want, because there's what we talked about the society. Mm-Hmm. It's what we seem we should, what it seems like we should want. Right. Which is the next cherry, the next step up the ladder. It's, we we're ingrained into this, like in, in a, in a school system, you want the a's. Right? You wanna graduate to go to the next class, the next class, and then you get a diploma. So it's very, very clear what you should want, what the next step is. So I think we could all say this is what a conventional path of success is. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
(33:09):
But I think what's important is also looking at our energy, which is what's really important to us. But that can be hard to figure out what it is. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So what I tell people to look at a lot is in their day to day, whether it's today, whether it's last week, whether it's last month, what are the activities that you're doing that charge your batteries? Is it going deep, writing certain lines of code? Is it creating, you know, a series of email templates? Is it working with certain type of, of people? And this isn't the end all be all answer. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But it starts to be an inkling of to be like, what charges your batteries? What raises your energy? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
(33:50):
And
(33:51):
This changes over time. The first time you led led a brainstorm session about a new product idea with this group of people. Maybe it was great, but two years in. Hmm. It doesn't charge you anymore. It's just kind of like, yeah, I'm used to it. I know how to do it. I want something else. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So what I'm saying is inputs into this feeling of self knowledge is well know what the traditional path is. If that's what you want, that's great. It makes it a little easier. Right. But also talk to a lot of people to know what different paths might be. And then most importantly, watch your energy. Watch the activities that charge your batteries and drain your battery batteries and look at it over a period of time.
(34:33):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So for some of us, we may not understand exactly how to watch our energy. Could you give us a little bit some other things like, do we watch our language, you know, what types of stories we're telling or conversations we're having? Do we watch our posture or how we're hanging out, whether or not we wanna get outta bed in the morning? What is it, what are some markers of someone's energy that they could have perception of?
(34:57):
That's a fabulous question. I love that. So all of the above. Is there excitement when you wanna get out of bed in, in the morning and go to work? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> is there that familiar Sunday afternoon dread,
(35:18):
They call it the Sunday scaries, right?
(35:20):
<Laugh>, the Sunday scaries. Does this, do these feelings change? Do you always know that throughout your entire career when you were in school, you're gonna feel ugh, on Monday morning? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, if you know that, that's okay. That's just cyclical, seasonal. Normal. Normal. If you have seasonal affective disorder, do you always know you're gonna have a sense of, ugh, in November, December, it's okay. So it's paying attention to be all right. What's my normal cycle of wanting to be excited to get out of the, out of bed in the morning to go to work? What's my weekly normal cycles like, more down on Monday, more up on Fridays? You know, if you really have this feeling that's been persisting over time of oh my god, Sunday afternoon, I don't know if I can do this anymore. Hmm. These are, this, these feelings are one sign of, of energy. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Like where you can look at it at individual places and over time. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Now I mentioned the daily activities of battery charging and battery draining. I'm sure there's more. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. There's some you wanna throw into the mix. Tina Marie.
(36:29):
Yeah. I know that, you know, I own my own company. Right? And it's not always roses. It's, you know, you've got to, we, I do pump my energy up in order to go do the financial statements. So we've got tax season coming and, and things of that nature. How I do that is that I know on the other side, that creates the foundation and the consistency and the persistence of my company so that I can serve those people that I, I desire to serve. Right? So the, there's a story that I tell myself and meaning I give something in order to get myself over the hurdles that feel like they're scary or draining, and not all of my day is draining. Not all of my week is draining. I'm willing to amp up my battery power to go in and say, okay, I am gonna give an hour or 30 minutes to this thing so that I can focus on it, but I'm not gonna endure it.
(37:18):
Like it's some kind of, you know, self-abuse. I'm gonna give myself the understanding that this is the container that's going to feel energized and I'm gonna focus on it. I also listen to the mindset because if my mind is telling me the sad, painful story that I'm creating chaos or drama in my mind, I've gotta take control over that and tell her to shut up. You know? Yeah. I am in control of the thoughts that are going through my mind. And I, you know, that self-awareness allows Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, like, come on, shift it woman. Don't, don't go down that, you know, pity potty party kind of thing. Yeah. And we are in control of that energy. Yeah. And we're in control of our joy too. Yep. Right? It's not outside in.
(37:58):
Some of the things that I think are fascinating is the work of Lisa Barrett Feldman who as proven that emotions are more controllable than, than we think. Oh, here's another good tip, actually, which is to shift and look at energy manage and be aware of energy as to how, what's happening in, in our bodies. Mm-Hmm.
(38:24):
<Affirmative>.
(38:25):
So what what Dr. Feldman talks about is that when you have that feeling like that slightly thick butterfly sickening feeling in, in the pit of your stomach Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, what could that be? I think there's two things. One, it could be dread and failure and anxiety. Like before you need to step on the stage to talk publicly. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. The other, it could, could be excitement and anticipation. Like when you're on a rollercoaster and it's going up and up and up. Mm-Hmm.
(38:57):
<Affirmative>,
(38:58):
I think what one, as you said, these are two separate emotions. And your body and your mind may instantly say, okay, this is dread. This is dread. But one way to help manage your energy and be aware of it, like if you're about to speak, go step out on stage to speak in public, is to really tell yourself, all right, before assigning emotions, I wanna pay attention to what's happening in my body. What's happening in my body is a clenching in the stomach and like fluttery butterflies, I can breathe and I can call that excitement and anticipation that feeling of like, oh man, I'm about to hit the crest of that rollercoaster. I'm gonna give this speech and it is gonna be so fun and I'm gonna energize the room with that. So one key of energy management too, and self-awareness is paying attention to the cues of your body and being able to see what's happening with your body. Notice it like, where am I tense? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then being able to make a different choice with it.
(40:02):
Yeah. I, I send love to that part of my body is like, whenever it's creating anxiety, like, I love you, we got this <laugh> Yeah. Cheerleader, cheerleader it up. And so these healthy challenges, we all have them in our leadership. I find for myself, I love a good challenge. In fact, one that I am right now committed to saying this publicly is is the standup comedy that I've been doing. Love it. And so getting more open mics here in the Houston area. More than that, I've been booked, I have a booking for April 24th at the Broadway Comedy Club. And so in order to shine on that stage at New York City on Broadway I'm doing all the work that's necessary right now to have that space. And I'm, I've risen to the challenge. And so having a challenge in my life means that it's gonna cause me to become a better version of myself. And I'm gonna do it strategically instead of being high on Hopium and going, oh, I hope this all works out. You know, like, no, we're gonna prepare. Love it. We're gonna do it. And this is how we are in leaders as leadership. And, and you've given us so many wonderful tidbits and, and perspectives to rise to the occasion of only our self-leadership first and then delete others.
(41:15):
Yep. Absolutely. Mm-Hmm.
(41:17):
<Affirmative>, it's awesome. I love your, your way of being and, and let's let people know how to find you. So I'm gonna, there are show notes so that those people that are@bonfirecoaching.com and you've listened to the podcast, maybe this is on Apple Podcast or Google get back over to bonfire coaching.com and subscribe to the, the show notes. 'cause You're gonna get so many wonderful gifts in that. And you're gonna be able to see Tui's all of her websites. And so tudy tangly tagley.com, T-A-Y-G-E-R-L y.com. And then also on LinkedIn, they can find you on LinkedIn and on Instagram. What's the best place to find you? And I know you have a gift for us as well.
(41:57):
So tuty tager lee.com is the best place to, to find me. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And the one thing I would say is that if you're listening to this and you feel inspired, if you are curious about Healthy challenge and you wanna learn more about how this could impact your life or impact your organization, 'cause it's not just us, it's the systems that we live within. Mm-Hmm. I'd love you to think if there's a, a place that I could come and speak at, because I love doing in-person and virtual speaking, to share this message and give very, very actionable tips and tactics to have it really work well for the system of your organization. Hmm. So I would really reach out for that because it's more of us need to hear this message so that we can be healthier, happier leaders.
(42:50):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, thank you. And the gift you've given us is at 2D tagley.com/ heroine's journey. I know that's something that you've worked on also is in helping female leaders Yes. Arise to their occasions, right?
(43:04):
Yes. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, what I do is I run a women's leadership retreat with one of my best friends. And if you go over to the Heroine's Journey retreat, it's a way that I, I do this once a year and it's my favorite event of the year. And what I do with it is I create a container of, I'll even say magic, because this is a space that's very special to me between the ocean and the redwood trees. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And it's a special retreat for women for three days where you can come in and every single woman who's gone through this program has been transformed. They know how to approach healthy challenge in their life, and they're supported by a community of women. And we leave the women with this gift of transformation and a roadmap for what's next for them over the next six months of their life. It's absolutely powerful. It's something that's so special for me.
(44:01):
And, and it's, you know, we need more of that in our world that we, we embody this soul version of ourselves. Absolutely. And bring that into everything we do, including our career.
(44:15):
Absolutely.
(44:16):
It's beautiful. Thank you so much for being our guest today on Ignite Your Leadership Duty. It's always a, a joy to have our conversations and see where there's the pathway leads. Tons of takeaways today. And thank you audience and listeners for following us here. Do go over to 2D tagley.com. Find her on LinkedIn. Go Google her and see her TEDx talks and her wonderful books. You will be, you're adding her to your favorites, I guarantee it. And if you are an organizational leader, a hiring manager, you're over a team and you want to have two D's Energy a fact, and, you know, vibrate into your organization, bring her to speak, bring her to hold workshops. I've seen her, she, she has magic through Zoom. If you wanna do that, but you want her in person the energy is infectious in a beautiful way. Thank you again so much my friend. Thanks so much.